Monday, May 20, 2013

What's wrong with Religion today.

Since the launch of the new blog, I've gotten involved in two discussions/threads about religion.  I thought I'd share them.


Jake 
Saturday at 2:37pm near Mont Belvieu, TX · 
  • "Let me be frank: I have no patience for suggestions that preachers need to dumb it down. Preachers need to be clear, and they need to be able to explain things in understandable ways. But human beings do not need the Bible to be dumbed down. If you think that, what you really think is that God the Holy Spirit did not know what He was doing when He inspired the Bible to be the way it is. Not only does the suggestion that the Bible is more than God’s people can handle blaspheme God’s wisdom; it also blasphemes His image bearers. People are made in the image of God. Human beings are endowed with brains and sensibilities of astonishing capacity." - JimandJill 


    Jim Hamilton's Motivating Exhortation to Do Biblical Theology
    andynaselli.com
    I've read the end of this chapter by Jim Hamilton several times because it motivates me to do biblical theology: James M. Hamilton Jr. “Biblical Theology and Preaching.” Pages 193–218 in Text Drive...
    Like ·  ·  · 
    • 15 people like this.
    • David  He's such a sugar coated
    • David  Autocorrect... *coater
    • Jake ...riiiiight... 
    • Jake I'll never forget the first time I heard him preach in chapel at SWBTS. I'm not sure my eyes have ever been so wide open. He read a quote from a particularly popular Houston-area "preacher" on how messages should make people feel good and didn't need a lot of Bible. I was waiting for Jim's head to explode as he read the quote. It was powerful.
    • Susan  Um, it's interesting that it's the opposite practice but same underlying ideology that was opposed to the Bible being translated into English. Heaven forbid God's Word find it's way into the hands of the common man, he wouldn't understand it! He wouldn't know how to read it! He would misuse it in practice! ...yup, i'd like to go to a church service someday, just once, where all that was done for 40 minutes was directly reading out of scripture, with no more commentary than a good lexicon, and maybe a couple of cross-references.
    • Thomas  Going to disagree a slight bit. If it didn't need to be dumbed down, then why do we seem to fail with extraordinary results at the basic ideas? Because really, when you get down to the nitty gritty it's this; don't be a jerk, love everyone, and accept everyone despite your differences. That's it. It's really simple, and yet we cannot get it right. So perhaps we do need to dumb it down.
    • Wendy Thomas we fall because we follow our sinful desire. The nitty gritty isnt that basic. Dumbing it down isnt what we need. We need pastors to teach the bible and put personal quick fix make everyone feel good mess away.
      Saturday at 8:18pm via mobile · Like · 2
    • Wendy pastors dumb down their sermons and that is one reason i think a lot of people only know one or two lines in the bible instead of the stories. The stories are what God wants us to know....To learn from.
    • Thomas  It is that basic though. John 13:34 "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." So the commandment is to love each other as Christ loved us. Selfless, accepting of all love. The entire gospel is example after example of Christ showing acceptance and love for EVERYONE regardless of who or what they are. That's pretty basic.
    • Jake I think we need to be careful not to lump together three distinct concepts: basic, simple, and easy. Thomas, you're right that John 13:34 is a basic distillation of biblical teaching, along with the great commandment (to love the Lord will all our heart, mind, soul, and strength). Jesus told us that on these two commands all the law depends (Matthew 22:40). The basic teaching of the Bible is on loving God and loving others, and it does this by revealing to us who God is, his ways, his character, and his salvation through Christ.

      But just because all the Bible can be summed up in two basic commandments -- love God, love others -- does not mean that living out these commandments is simple or easy. How do we love God? God wants us to worship him a particular way. Sincerity alone does not amount to holiness (just as Nadab and Abihu from Leviticus 10:1-2, or Peter in Matthew 16:22-23). And how do we love others? Sometimes loving others means being divided from them (Matthew 10:34), or rebuking them (Titus 1:13), or delivering their flesh to Satan so that their spirits may be saved (1 Corinthians 5:5). I mean, how do we know when to practice Proverbs 26:4 instead of Proverbs 26:5? Loving God doesn't just mean loving others, which doesn't just mean being nice.

      It's basic, but it's not simple or easy. That's why God's self-revelation through the written Word of Scripture consists of more than "Love God, love others." And that's why preachers need to teach the whole counsel of God, the whole of Scripture -- the happy parts and sad part: because ALL of the Bible is useful for equipping us for godliness (2 Timothy 3:16-17). We need to know the whole thing, and know it well in order to understand how to love God and love others. (And here's a big hint: it all comes back to knowing God through Jesus Christ and becoming like him by faith - see Luke 24:27, 44.)
      Yesterday at 12:46am · Like


      The above is the perspective of a minister, and his flock.  I think the point I was making was missed.   While yes there is more to it then don't be an asshole, what's the point if people can't get the basics?   Why in the world would anyone who isn't already a part of Christianity, want to join?   Just from this alone, you're being told that its your duty to babysit everyone else.  That in order to achieve spiritual gooey oneness with the universe, one must really overstep their bounds, and parent others.   I disagree with this ever so strongly.   I believe that in order to even be ready for that next step, you have to be perfect.  You have to have gotten the basics down to an art form, and if you think you've gotten the basics down; you've failed.

      If people choose to sin, if people choose to not follow the word and path set before them because they are weak.  How then, would we be able to be stewards of men?  




      Thomas shared a link.
      Friday near Portland
      The new blog. Read it, discuss it, share it.


      Like ·  · Promote · 
      • Jennifer likes this.
      • John The bible itself sets a precedent where believers are convinced the unsaved will burn in hell for all eternity. Seems important enough to motivate most people to try and save people they care about. Unfortunately the bible has made it clear the same fate awaits innocent children born into different cultures and theologies. The irony is that Genesis claims the reason people come from different cultures was due to God's own engineering after watching people try to build the tower of babel shortly after the great flood. God himself takes credit for engineering the cultural indifference to revelation you see in countries and cultures where Christianity is a minority faith. Meanwhile child molesters and murderers in parts of the world where Christianity is dominant can repent, get a lethal injection and go to heaven, while dead children burn in hell. This alone takes the rug out from the feet of Christianity as any form of moral compass for any human being on this planet in my opinion. Therefore the idea that conversion toward Christianity as a form of being saved is morally reprehensible to me.
      • John I will say that I respect you greatly for not thinking it is your duty to save people who do not believe. However, I would also add that people assuming the stance that people who think differently than themselves need any saving at all is delusional.
      • Thomas  Christianity teaches that yes, all sins can be forgiven. However, one must truly repent in order to be forgiven. Part of repenting is reparation for the sins a person has committed in life. A death bed confession, or sudden finding of "faith" at the final hour does not absolve one of the wrongdoings they committed in life. As far as children of other faiths and cultures go, one cannot be held accountable for sins, until they are an adult. God is love, why would a being of love torment children? The tower of Babel story is another look at consequences for ones choices. It wasn't the tower that was the problem, it was the hubris set forth by the people trying to elevate themselves to be on par with the creator. You find similar stories of a supreme creator putting a stop to hubris in all religions.
      • John So if God is willing to spare children of their cultural ignorance of revelation, what does that say for the relatives of those dead children? These people are doomed because when they pray for the souls of these dead children, they are praying to the wrong God.
      • Thomas You can thank Saint Gerome for the modern idea of Hell. The concept of a place of eternal torment, of which there is no end, and no escape for sinners; is never mentioned in the Bible. The concept of needing to purify oneself from the sins they have committed, to do penance for the wrongdoings they have committed in life. That is very much a part of the teachings. Only those who have provided direct opposition to God, to be the anti-thesis of love an life are damned. Even they maybe saved, forgiveness, and love for all.
      • JohnThe story regarding the tower of babel is interesting for two reasons. 

        1. It perfectly illustrated the fact that whoever wrote it was not divinely inspired, but had the same knowledge of how the world worked as the average person during the time it was written. They assume people making a tower to try to literally reach the heavens would be successful if they were allowed to continue building it before God intentionally displaced them.

        2. The underlying reason for the story is to imply that one will be punished for questioning God's authority.
      • John When you say "direct opposition towards God" you mean God's word. Which is only interpreted through writings by man. Were it not for the Bible we would have no blueprint of God's hopes and requirements of people. Therefore one must assume the supposed divinely inspired words of man are the final solution in order to interpret God's word. Anything that deviates is open to subjective interpretation.
      • Thomas And the bible very specifically acknowledges the existence of other gods. That people can and will worship those gods as well. Christianity, Judaism, Islam all teach that God is supreme amongst all other gods. This is true in every other religion in the world, except for Buddhism. The difference here is this, and where the outlook on evangelism I have is there. God is concerned with Gods people. If you choose to be one of Gods people, after being told the message, then here are the benefits you garner. If you choose not to, you are left to the fate provided by whatever devices you choose. 

        Of course the Tower of Babel is about not questioning authority. Isn't everything we are taught by our parents a message of "don't question my authority"
      • John The idea that one can commit heinous acts of inhuman cruelty and repent after, and end up in a better spot in the afterlife than someone with a good heart who never accepted Jesus is the source of the issue. Exodus 20:3 contradicts your statement about having free will to worship other gods. If what you said was true, there would be a universally passive response towards believers of different religions and atheists all together.
      • Thomas  No, when I mean "direct opposition towards God" I do not mean mans interpretation of God's will. I mean the most basic, universally accepted truth and basis of all societal norms. Love everyone, don't' be an asshole, try to get along with everyone regardless of who or what they believe, where there is sadness bring joy, where there is sickness bring health, where there is death bring life. Be a good person, and if you choose not to be a good person then one would be damned. Even then God is love, God forgives al sins; no matter how big or how small. You still must do your penance, but your sins, all sins can be forgiven to those who seek forgiveness.

        Before you ask, by this line of thinking, yes I believe that even Lucifer can and will someday be forgiven.
      • Thomas  Exodus 20:3 entirely supports my statement to have the choice to worship other gods. Its very clear, "You shall have no other other gods before me." The entire passage is this Exodus 20:1-4 states. "Then God spoke all these words, saying, “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.“You shall have no other gods before Me.“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.“You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."

        Meaning should you choose God, as your God, these are the rules you must live by.
      • John  All the values you just mentioned are just as easily accomplished by anyone regardless of faith. The only reason why faith is even part of the conversation is because some people need to know there is a reward in the afterlife as an incentive to do good for others. They should be universally practiced regardless of faith.

        Does an athiest with golden intentions toward all people have a better chance of going to heaven than a religious extremist who kills people in the name of his beliefs?
      • Thomas  And so you understand now. Christianity is just one of many ways one can gain that moral compass that people seem to need. It isn't perfect, but its a system that works.

        And yes, the atheist who understands, and treats all people with love and compassion has a better chance of salvation, then the extremist who forces their will upon others. Keep in mind, that the extremist will have to do a penance of sorts for the actions they took that where ungodly.
      • John  Or do they? People who kill others in the name of God are 100% convinced that what they are doing is not wrong. Again the moral compass for knowing that is provided via the word of man through God's supposed will.
      • Thomas  The people who commit inhuman acts of cruelty, evils against his fellows can, and will be forgiven if they seek out redemption. However, penance must still be paid.
      • Thomas  It isn't a question of what they think is right or wrong, its what flies in the face of the values and teachings. Killing in the name of God, because you believe it is the only way to "save them" is wrong. Christ teaches us to love, an accept everyone everywhere. Forcing the faith at the end of the sword is in direct opposition of everything that is taught.
      • Thomas Lancaster Jake Porter feel free to weigh in, or observe the debate.
      • John Considering God instructed Abraham to murder his own son, it's not far fetched to assume murdering people in the name of God isn't against the values and teachings of Christianity. Even the instruction itself was more of a test of obedience. It's no wonder extremist Christians murder abortion doctors because they see their actions as helping the greater good of humanity. Who are you to say these people (who read the same book and interpret it differently) are doomed, when they use the same book to justify their actions?

        You are the only Christian I have ever met that has said an athiest with good intentions would fare better in the afterlife than someone who has accepted Jesus but does terrible things. If your belief was held universally by Christians there would be absolutely no need for salvation whatsoever and Christianity would merely exist as a guide towards being a good person instead of a final solution that offers eternal torment to non believers. Even your blog asserts that you feel a need to reach out to athiests but restrain yourself out of respect for them. If you truly believed they would be ok regardless, you would have no incentive to "save" them at all. As they would require no "saving" if simply being a good person was enough.
      • Thomas  It is a lesson of obedience. However, the gospel, Jesus teaches us that the newest commandments are far simpler and supersede the previous ones. That no more shall blood sacrifices be made. You are not living a life of peace and love if you murder someone regardless of your beliefs. Therefore if you have chosen God as your god, and Christ as the mortal incarnation of God, and you choose to commit acts that are against these basic commandments; you are wrong. So yes DeWitt, the misguided Christian fundamentalist who blows up an abortion clinic clearly is wrong. The sins the commit are forgivable, but penance will be paid. And who am I? I am no one more then a man who is speaking their interpretation of the faith to those who would listen. I feel it is a travesty that a religion that has a clear theme of love has been perverted to a point that people turn away, hate it even.
        Saturday at 9:26am via mobile · Like · 1
      • John I really respect that you interpret the values taught in the bible to truly do good for those around you. If more people treated it that way, the intolerance you see towards organized religion would be minimized greatly. The squeaky wheel gets the grease unfortunately.
      • Thomas  As far as doom goes, I have neither eluded or stated doom for anyone who intercepts it differently. I have very specifically stated that should a person choose this path, and should they break the rules of this path; they can receive forgiveness should they seek it, but they must do penance for their sins.
      • John  Pretty sure we're supposed to be viciously insulting each other at this point. This is Facebook after all! 




        This part here was a discussion with my friend John.  I'm reasonably sure that John is an Atheist, or at the very least has the wisdom to question, to explore what he is told.  

        You see, my entire message, my entire point behind this is shared with John.  It isn't about my being a steward of man.  It isn't about forcing my beliefs upon him.   Its about spreading the message.  Its about going back to the basics of the faith.   Which, I feel very strongly is really about getting people back to the basic values.

        People as a rule, dislike bullshit, and eventually will call you on it.  Thats what modern religion in general has wrong with it.

        Its full of bullshit.   How can you reach someone, if all you are doing is being a hypocrite in their eyes?   The faith, the works, the word taught are about acceptance and love.  You are not being Christ like if you are not living the core values.  

        Christ loved everyone, accepted everyone, regardless of who or what they were.  In none of his works does it say "And lo, the Lord walked into the den of homosexuals.  Finding them there committing acts of sodomy, he cursed them for they were an abomination unto  God."  or "Then, Jesus told people 'You guys should ostracize those who don't live up to your standards.   I mean, if they can't keep up with the image you portray to the world, then fuck those guys.  Especially those who have done something wrong, because no matter how long they have suffered paying back their debt; they need to be constantly reminded they are going to hell for their sins."    Rather you find case after case of that acceptance and love for everyone; because we all make mistakes.  We all fail.  None of us will ever reach the divinity, or perfection found there.  However we sure can try, and we do that by first doing the basics.l


        Finally I leave you with the following question.  Who do you think I reached more?   The minister and his flock, who corrected me, telling me that the basics are not what we need to focus on.   Or the atheist John, who at the very least made it publicly known he respected me for trying to reach out and do good for those around me with those values?

Posted by at

No comments:

Post a Comment

Subscribe to: Post Comments (Atom)